Bean There, Done That!

[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:02 - (A): You are listening to Been There, Done that, we present some of the smartest people connected to the business of coffee. People who've succeeded in the tough grind of hospitality by staying ahead of the rest. So join us as we explore the secrets to their success and help you accelerate your business. This show is brought to you by the Coffee Commune, where the coffee community comes to collaborate. Enjoy the show.
0:00:31 - (Phil): Greetings, everybody. Phil DeBella here from the coffee commune and it's been there and done that. Welcome to the show. Today I've got a special guest, Joshua King, who has previously worked for me many years ago. He's been in this industry over 1520 years now. He's the author of a book called The Hospitality Survival Guide how to Survive and Thrive in the Hospitality Industry. He's done consulting and as we say, he's been there and done that and that's why I've asked him to join me on the show.
0:00:58 - (Joshua): Joshua, welcome. Thanks for having me, Phil.
0:01:00 - (Phil): And you don't mind if I call you Josh?
0:01:02 - (Joshua): Of course, that's fine.
0:01:02 - (Phil): It's a bit like me, I say to people I've been called worse than just Phil. But as we know, the landscape we've covered in these shows, the landscape we kicked off the show with, obviously our small business commissioner talking about what's going on. Tell me, what's the current landscape today in the cafe industry, from your experience?
0:01:19 - (Joshua): Look, we've got over 3000 or so members in the group at the moment and the biggest thing that we're seeing, probably 60% to 70% of posts are around numbers. When we look at post COVID, it's really shifted from a lot around recruitment and training and legal elements and government based things to numbers. So we're seeing a lot more discussions around costs, around wages, especially around superannuation. In today's climate, margins are spent per head and FPOs.
0:01:47 - (Phil): Yeah, isn't it interesting? And just so the audience knows, joshua started an amazing group on social media, on Facebook, australian Cafe Network, I believe it is.
0:01:55 - (Joshua): Australian Cafe Owners Network.
0:01:56 - (Phil): Australian Cafe Owners Network. You can have a look at it and there's over 3000, 203,400 people on that and it's very active and Josh takes it very seriously. He obviously scrutinizes things and he monitors it and it's really professionally run and I'm on there myself checking what people are asking and trying to help where I can. But isn't it interesting that a lot of the shift now is around numbers, as you say?
0:02:18 - (Phil): Tell me, what's been the major changes in line with that? What have you seen has been the major change in the cafe industry of late?
0:02:25 - (Joshua): Again, I think we've had big discussions prior to COVID around attracting customers and I'm not really utilizing COVID as an example because it was a short gap. So a lot around customer attraction and now we're about managing numbers, we're seeing a bigger shift towards supporting local. So where food comes from, customers want much more awareness with health and dietary needs and that kind of thing.
0:02:48 - (Joshua): And a significant increase in digital marketing, connecting with customers online, specifically Gen Z. So definitely Millennials were still a part of that, but Gen Z, I love the local movement.
0:02:58 - (D): Right.
0:02:58 - (Phil): I think one of the good things to come out of the shitty time of COVID is that people became conscious buyers. They really started supporting their locals. I've got friends that own local businesses and they said that their footfall and their patronage went up because people started to be conscious about supporting locals. So it's great that that's sticking. It's funny you say about knowing your numbers, too.
0:03:17 - (Phil): I think that's something that obviously, as the margins have gotten a lot thinner, people have got to be a lot more conscious of that. And something I talk about, and I'd hear your take on this, is that I'm seeing that the customers want more for less. I'm seeing that the expectation of the customer has actually increased, but they're not exactly willing to pay for it.
0:03:34 - (Joshua): Yeah, I think the level of customer engagement and connection is at an all time high. When the pockets are quite tight, people are expecting more for their dollar and not just the hospitality industry across the.
0:03:46 - (Phil): Board, across every industry.
0:03:46 - (Joshua): Correct. And this is affecting everyone at the moment. So we are seeing inclination to build a connection, which really comes back to that value proposition of the cafe. What it is that you actually deliver beyond a coffee yeah. Is really important.
0:03:59 - (Phil): And if we take all that in, it segues nicely into the next thing. And it segues from the beautiful book you wrote. And I read it myself and it's fantastic.
0:04:06 - (D): And I know a lot of people.
0:04:07 - (Phil): That have got a lot out of it and cafe owners that are listening should get copy of it. The hospitality survival guide. It is exceptional. So let's live into that. Tell me, what do they need to know to survive today and more importantly, tomorrow? Based on what we've just been talking about, how the consumer needs have changed.
0:04:23 - (Joshua): Again, it comes back to numbers. And with this industry and most industries, in my opinion, you have to have a love for business and you have to have a love for people. And we're normally sitting on that spectrum somewhere left or right. So if you're more focused on numbers.
0:04:37 - (D): Find someone who's focused on customers.
0:04:39 - (Phil): Yes, makes sense.
0:04:40 - (Joshua): So we talk about numbers at the moment and I would be looking at, before I answer that, it's more, I think, about having an honest conversation with yourself and your business. Like, how much of a connection do you have with your numbers? Is it something you're looking at week to week?
0:04:54 - (D): Do you really dive into it?
0:04:55 - (Joshua): I often speak with a lot of cafe owners and some of them are quite fearful to really know what the numbers are down the grassroots almost a.
0:05:02 - (D): Bit of shame behind not knowing.
0:05:04 - (Joshua): And I think knowing those grassroots, knowing what the margins are with the ink. So, for example, how much money are you making for your products? And if there's a product increase, are you putting that into the margins? Are you constantly looking at that because it's all good and well to keep your prices the same, but if costs are going up, your margins are going down.
0:05:21 - (D): Really being active, I think a big.
0:05:23 - (Joshua): One is labor costs. So really looking at your calendar for the week and really making sure that your staff are utilizing the best way. We have a lot of owners that focus on making things in house because.
0:05:33 - (D): It keeps costs down and everything.
0:05:34 - (Joshua): But if you've got two people working full time making cakes and sweets, is that really more cost effective than just buying in a gourmet type of thing? That's important. I think also looking at what your best seller items are in the cafe, really making sure that they're heroing, a really good margin, that you can go with that. And I think, above all, it really comes down to what your customers want, which is very location specific.
0:05:59 - (Joshua): I think we've got to put our sort of ego aside and go, okay, this is what I'd like to deliver. But is that what people actually want?
0:06:06 - (Phil): Correct.
0:06:07 - (Joshua): Is this something that will sell well? And making sure that you focus on that, I think that's really important.
0:06:13 - (D): I've seen a lot of venues that.
0:06:15 - (Joshua): Deliver a very basic item, a very basic lunch menu, and they've got queues out the door. And to anyone else, they might look at that and go, oh, it's pretty average food. It doesn't matter there's. Queues out the door. Correct. What you've done, you've delivered the right product to the right person. So really evaluating your product delivery.
0:06:30 - (Phil): Yeah, some really good takeaways there, especially around number one, which I've been talking about for 20 years in business. Know your numbers because you don't know what you don't know. And if you don't know your numbers, then you don't know how to work around it. And I mean, years ago, when your margins were a lot bigger, you'd had a lot more play. Now you don't. So you've got to know your numbers. And the big one there, which you know how I've always operated, is from the outside in, which is all around.
0:06:50 - (Phil): You got to serve stuff that somebody wants to buy. It doesn't matter how great it is. I've seen a lot of fine dining chefs go broke because they want to serve ego on a plate versus what somebody's prepared to pay for. So that's another real key one if you just took those two things because your biggest expense in your business is labor.
0:07:05 - (D): Right.
0:07:06 - (Phil): And people need to understand that from a percentage. It used to be 30%, ideally, but now it's in the 40s.
0:07:11 - (Joshua): Right.
0:07:11 - (Phil): And it's relentless and it's not because anyone wants to be paying anybody less. It's because it's all relative to what the customer wants to pay for a product, which you see all the time. It comes up on your chat all the time. Should I put my prices up? Should I not put my prices up?
0:07:24 - (D): Yeah.
0:07:24 - (Joshua): Surcharges on the weekend.
0:07:25 - (Phil): Correct. And then I said, which I put up on your answered one of the questions. I said, Sydney's been doing it for 30 years, charging 10% more on a Sunday. So listeners need to really understand what Josh has said around knowing your numbers and also, obviously, your rostering and your people. And don't think that if you're making all your cakes necessarily, it's cheaper, because labor is the biggest component, so you need to really work that in. So there's some good advice there. Tell me what sort of resources are available that you've seen, because our last tech expo, we export some really cool stuff.
0:07:54 - (Phil): So what sort of resources are you seeing that are available to people to help them survive? So to help them know their numbers, to help them with their marketing, especially to millennials using the social platforms. So what tools are out there?
0:08:05 - (Joshua): Well, I think you know a gentleman.
0:08:07 - (Phil): Ivan Brewer, who's going to have Ivan on the yeah, yeah.
0:08:10 - (Joshua): So I've worked with him for a number of years and with his product, I believe it's called Peso.
0:08:14 - (Phil): Peso.
0:08:15 - (Joshua): Peso, yeah. Profitability software. Those types of things I think are really important. I mean, we can talk about accounts, we can talk about those types of things. However, I think having some sort of a coach or a mentor on board is really important, starting with the numbers. So some profitability software really looking at people who provide a bit of an umbrella approach, who can help with the FPOs ideas, who can work into the market.
0:08:37 - (Joshua): A good friend of mine, his name Peter Gianakis from Adelaide, he runs a business called the Hospitality Coach. So he works with startups and people who are well established and does a lot of work with them. So those types of things I think are really important to have in your corner. Have someone from a financial point of view, had someone from a business coaching point of view. Accountants are great, financial advisors are great, but do they know this industry?
0:08:59 - (A): Yeah.
0:08:59 - (Phil): And making sure they're not just looking at the revision mirror. Because, like I say, accountants are all about where they are now going backwards. You want to be looking at the numbers and planning strategically forward.
0:09:07 - (D): Yeah.
0:09:07 - (Joshua): There are cafes that are doing very well out there and it's a system that can be duplicated.
0:09:12 - (Phil): Yeah. And of course, jump onto the Australian cafe owners network and stuff like that, because there's lots of nuggets of gold. Obviously, the coffee commune is there to help and there is a lot. And Queensland Small Business Commissioner talked about there's mentoring available, psychological coaching and all this sort of stuff available as well. So you can get that from the Coffee Commune website. You can also grab it from previous episodes in the Synopsis section. There's always those tools and tricks there.
0:09:35 - (Joshua): Yeah, I agree. I listened to that first episode and the amount of resources the government's throwing at this is really remarkable. Like, there is a lot of support.
0:09:42 - (Phil): There and it's good, isn't it? I mean, it's good, it's a good thing. And we've got to praise government when they do the right thing and of course hold them accountable, as I do when they're not. But that's something that they're doing really, really well. I'm a big advocate of appointing people that know their stuff. And the Queensland government did a great job appointing Dominic Lamb because she is a class act and she's out there and she's active and she's getting stuff done. Big advocate for small business owners.
0:10:03 - (Joshua): I think it's important to know when to ask for help. I think asking the right questions are important. Obviously, you've got resources, the cafe, there.
0:10:10 - (D): Are a lot of free resources out there.
0:10:12 - (Joshua): Asking the right question in the right environment is really important.
0:10:15 - (D): I mean, you can talk about, should.
0:10:16 - (Joshua): I increase my margins? What's the bigger question? What's really going on behind the veil.
0:10:21 - (Phil): And not feeling shame? You said that before, Ron. You got to remember that. That's why you need a good tribe around. You need a good environment, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a group, whether it's a networking group, you need a tribe around you because often when you're asking a question, there's many, many others that are thinking the same thing. They just might not have the braveness to ask it and they should, because this is not a time to be hiding in shame. This is a time where I say you got to get on your bike and pedal.
0:10:42 - (Phil): This is unprecedented times for a lot of people. I was in a forum not long ago and nobody in the room had been in business past the last ten years. Now, I've been in business 22 years, so I've seen these cycles before, but no one in that room of 20 people had been in business, owned a cafe or restaurant for longer than ten years, so they haven't seen the cycle. So ask the questions, ask for help, ask what you need to and get the right people around you.
0:11:04 - (D): Right?
0:11:04 - (Joshua): Absolutely. I mean, your resources with the Coffee community, there are free resources. There the Australian cafe owners network. It's free to join. Just got to be in the industry. And from that, ask the right questions. And then those additional resources you've got the accelerator program, you've got other resources I can offer. But it starts with the right question and being honest and the will and.
0:11:21 - (Phil): The mindset to actually want to get the help. So tell me, what are you seeing is differentiating successful venue operators to those that are really struggling. What would be a couple of key things that is really making the difference?
0:11:32 - (Joshua): As Les mentioned earlier, it really is about knowing your customer base and really acknowledging, okay, there are things that I may not want to put on the menu, but they are loving. I think that's really important to really understand what it is that they want. As I spoke about earlier, knowing your.
0:11:46 - (D): Customers, your numbers, the main thing here.
0:11:48 - (Joshua): Is normally there's a lot of small tweaks that a business can make to really start to making money. And it's not about reinventing the wheel. It's really building a culture around connection and growth within the company. So once you get serious around the numbers, that gives you a pretty clear indication of where you're at from that. We want to look at the customers.
0:12:06 - (D): And make sure that okay.
0:12:08 - (Joshua): Even though that these aren't maybe items that are selling very well, what can we do to shift it? How can we build a culture with our team around growth? How do we get everyone on board? Sure, you've noticed with cafes you go.
0:12:19 - (D): Into ones that are doing well, everyone's.
0:12:20 - (Joshua): On the same page.
0:12:21 - (Phil): Yes.
0:12:21 - (Joshua): You feel it? It's enjoyable. I think owners out there, they need to understand that it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to bring your team in, to ask for encouragement, to ask for guidance, and ask what people actually want to buy. People are buying coffees, people are buying food. That's never going to change.
0:12:35 - (Phil): Correct.
0:12:35 - (Joshua): So really coming to grassroots with management.
0:12:38 - (Phil): Is a big one. That I'm finding is how to manage things. Because we all know, right, this is not a time for high profit. The margins have been slashed out. But doesn't mean it's got to be a time where your business falls over. Even if you got to tread water. Can't always swim. If you're swimming 20 km, you're not going to swim it all in one go unless you're bloody superhuman, right? Sometimes you're just going have to pause and tread water. But the difference between treading water and sinking is a big difference, right? And that's something that I constantly say to people. Now's not a time to be setting high expectations or killing it or record profits, but it's certainly a time that you need to do the work, get a good tribe around, you know your numbers, deliver what customers want. And let's talk some of that, some of the trends, right? So for example, we're noticing the data, right?
0:13:15 - (Phil): I can tell you we're serving, say, 1200 customers a week. Average spend this time last year was around $18 to $19. It's down to about $13. Obviously you're seeing the same. Another trend we're seeing is the bacon and eggs used to be the number one sold product. It's now the ham and cheese croissant. Each person used to average, say, 2.4 coffees per visit. They're down now to about 1.4 coffees. They're having the other one in the office and the home. What are the other trends you're seeing from a big collection of data that you get from your group?
0:13:40 - (Joshua): Sure. I think as a whole, it comes down to people are being very specific.
0:13:44 - (D): With where they buy and why they buy.
0:13:47 - (Joshua): So I talk about something, it's called Peacocking. Okay. And what it is, it's about you delivering on something that has a real standout effect, but not messing around with the basics. So hero something, love it. So a great example and a business I follow quite extensively is BSKT on the Gold Coast. Great business. Great business. Why? Because they know their market. They know down there, they're a vegan cafe. For the listeners out there, I highly.
0:14:12 - (D): Recommend to have a look at them. They're a vegan cafe.
0:14:15 - (Joshua): They cater that Gold Coast market. They know their market, they're health conscious, they love being near the water. They love those options. They're that market, so they get it and they hero that element really well. They do a lot of advertising, they incorporate yoga into their building and all.
0:14:29 - (D): Those different aspects, but they haven't done.
0:14:31 - (Joshua): Anything that hasn't been done before. They've just done it in the right place in the right time.
0:14:35 - (Phil): I love that, the Peacocking, because they do and I know the business well. We're actually talking with them about producing their own coffee right now and they did a trial late last year, so we know the owners really well and they are so passionate about that. You've hit it on the head. They're very passionate about local they're very passionate about operating with local produce, operating with vegan produce. They're one of the first ever to do the SAE range, so they're a great example of that. They do the basics, they do it well, but they tell the story well, don't they?
0:15:01 - (Joshua): And that's what it comes down to. It's a story. It's the fact that even though it's a very competitive market, they've done extensive research into their market and there's no difference to any other cafes out there.
0:15:10 - (D): Based on your location, there's going to.
0:15:12 - (Joshua): Be something that your market really wants. Hero an item, get them in, deliver on the basics, not about reinventing the wheel. That's the biggest thing. I love it.
0:15:20 - (Phil): And another one comes to mind, is your new farm, Deli. There's a reason why they've been around since 35 years or whatever it is, because they're the same, too. They're not around making the best product or the best sandwich or the best this, but it's very good, it's consistent and they hero it and they do it well. And for them, it's all about passion of food and serving people. So they're another business to come and there's a whole range of people that do it. The boys at Saver are the same thing.
0:15:42 - (Phil): So I really like that. It's the first time I've heard that concept of peacocking, but it's actually really clever because, like I said, I can think of customers that are customers and people that aren't customers that have been in this industry for a long time that do that really, really well. So it's a good segue into marketing strategies. What are you seeing out there in terms of marketing? And let's clarify that. Marketing is the art of telling a story so compelling. People choose you. People really misconstrue what marketing is. It is about that storytelling and getting the emotional engagement. What are you seeing out there that works?
0:16:08 - (Joshua): Well, I think at a grassroots level, ensuring that your digital presence is up to scratch and relevant. So Google listing, being on a number of different platforms, knowing what platforms to be on is very important. Again with the gen Z's and the millennials like the Facebook TikTok. TikTok is now a big one.
0:16:24 - (Phil): As a one.
0:16:25 - (Joshua): I mean, if you're worried about how to do it, get one of your staff to do it. They know it better than you. There's no point trying to do it yourself.
0:16:30 - (Phil): Just that's what we've done at the commune. Yeah, I was talking to Sarah Hackett the other day, who's one of the well, she is currently the number one.
0:16:36 - (D): Female agent in Australia.
0:16:37 - (Phil): She's same age as me, 48. And she was like, well, someone said, Put the property on TikTok. And she's like, no, you got to be kidding me. One of her younger crew did it, and she's getting stopped on the street, getting asked about the property, and she just said, It just blew my mind.
0:16:50 - (Joshua): Right.
0:16:50 - (Phil): We've got to get current. We can't be dinosaur thinking.
0:16:53 - (Joshua): Exactly. I'd recommend looking at those social media platforms, number one, being current with them, because the main thing is, if you're on these multiple platforms, when you are Googled and everyone is Googling, like, no one's asking for a friend. Like, when they go to a new era, they're jumping online. If you're on multiple platforms, your listing comes up a lot faster. You're at the top. You're on Facebook, you're on Instagram, you're.
0:17:10 - (D): On the top four searches and then encouraging reviews.
0:17:13 - (Phil): Reviews are a big one because we did it. We just came back from traveling overseas. You look up a restaurant, someone recommends it. What are you doing? You're looking at the reviews 100%. And of course, you're filtering the reviews. Like, we got one bad review at the commune saying the meal size was too small, but said it was great value, and we sort of went, well, okay, how do you figure that? Well, yeah, the meal size was smaller because people don't want to pay 25. So we've cut it back to a $15 plate and obviously cut the portion size. So you've got to filter through the comments, and you're looking for logic. Right, but the reviews are great way to see what other people are saying about a place through their eyes. But of course, you've got to be able to sift through the garbage as well.
0:17:49 - (Joshua): Absolutely. And responding to those reviews, I think, number one, if you go through like anyone, myself included, if go through a product that's got four and a half stars all the way through, and I see a one star, I'm not reading all the five stars.
0:17:59 - (D): Correct.
0:17:59 - (Joshua): I'm reading the one, and I'm seeing whether that one's being responded to.
0:18:02 - (Phil): Correct. And that's how they respond, right?
0:18:04 - (Joshua): Oh, 100%.
0:18:04 - (Phil): Don't get defensive. That's what I said.
0:18:06 - (Joshua): Don't get defensive.
0:18:06 - (Phil): That's how we responded to the one that said, oh, the value wasn't good, but size was small, is we responded with exactly that. We said. What we found is that people would rather now smaller meals and pay cheaper than have something bigger and charge more because everybody's tightening up on their disposable income. We didn't get defensive about it. We explained it. That's the best you can do. But I think if you hit on it before, if you're looking at things from the customer's eyes and you're really focused on the needs of your customer, then your actions will follow that whether it's responding to a review, whether it's reading a review, whether it's designing menu, pricing, et cetera, et cetera. What else is trending out there?
0:18:40 - (Joshua): Look, based on that review, I just want to add in there. I was just at Betty's burgers on the weekend, and my partner and I were having a good laugh, and one of the staff came up asking, how we're going? How was it? We're like, great. Fantastic. And she gave us a little card that had the QR code. She said, hey, if you're really having a great time, it'd be a huge help if you could leave us a review.
0:18:58 - (Joshua): And it was just a QR code where you scanned it and went straight to made it very easy, straight to the review file. So I really enjoyed that element for that. Digital point of view was really great. A lot of it's digital. It's matching the digital experience with the real experience. Yes. That's really important.
0:19:11 - (Phil): Real key takeaway there, guys, is matching the digital experience with the real experience or the other way around matching the real experience?
0:19:17 - (Joshua): Absolutely.
0:19:17 - (Phil): And that's marketing 101. Don't say one thing and deliver another thing.
0:19:21 - (D): Right.
0:19:21 - (Joshua): The other thing, too, in house, is make payments easy. Like, very easy. A lot of people are ordering from the tables now with QR codes. Look, I'm all for it. I think it's a great thing. It does save on wages. It's a great asset to the business. But make sure that systems downpay. Make sure you make payment very easy. The way I kind of see the cafe industry bars restaurant moving to a certain degree is with that online ordering, which is really great, and accompanying that with staff who are just like your entertainers, essentially. They're coming in, they've got the best job in the world.
0:19:52 - (Joshua): We were at Felons a while back and it was QR code ordering and we could set a tab and then we could say when we wanted the.
0:20:00 - (Phil): Food to come out. And as you said, the wait staff get to engage then with you, right.
0:20:04 - (Joshua): They're having the best time ever. And that's what it's about. It's really making all those processes for your team and buying so simple that your only job that the staff are doing is just to build connections with them, to entertain them, to educate them. That's really important.
0:20:19 - (Phil): Great advice because next question was going to be about customer experience. How important is customer experience in a cafe, especially in a flooded market where everyone's trying to stand out, especially now. We've got a lot of cafes closing, but you had a lot of cafes opening over the last ten years. How do you stand out from a crowd, to me, is around customer experience. Talk me through the importance of that from your eyes.
0:20:40 - (Joshua): Well, it's as important as it's ever been. You look at the history of the problems that the cafe industry is having. It's either lack of customers, it's issues with recruitment, it's money. They're all the same problems that have always been there. They're just sort of propping up. But the customer experience is king. It always is, it always will be. And I think where some people fall off is that it's a hard thing to measure.
0:21:00 - (Joshua): How do you determine what great customer service is? Is it based on the owner's perception? Is it based on the market's perception? Is it based on the customer's perception? What have they had previously in terms.
0:21:10 - (D): Of a customer experience?
0:21:11 - (Joshua): I think at a grassroots level, is having your steps of service in place, real basic steps of service, that all staff are across the whole board, that everyone's greeted in the same way. Everyone's about that young girl that was at Betty's Burgers, clearly there were some great steps of service there. She was told to say, hey, if guys are having a great time, go out and engage with them.
0:21:30 - (D): And she was on the floor doing that.
0:21:32 - (Joshua): I think the other part of it that may get pushed aside a bit is difficult situations. So role playing with your team on.
0:21:39 - (D): Difficult scenarios like bringing that to the.
0:21:41 - (Joshua): Front in weekly meetings and saying what was a difficult time you had this week. I think above all, it's back to that culture element. It's bringing the whole team in full circle. We had a member question in the cafe group that wanted to have a discussion around this. Today is like, how do I get my team on board with this? And my answer to that is get your team on board.
0:21:58 - (Phil): Correct.
0:21:59 - (Joshua): Bring them with you, take them on the journey.
0:22:01 - (Phil): Right? I mean, you used to work for me years ago and you know what a stickler I. Was for customer experience. It's all about the customer. Doesn't mean the customer is always right. No, but the customer's got to be treated with respect. And one of my bugbears let's talk some of your bugbears. But some of my bugbears is you don't call a customer mate, you greet them with how you're going? It's welcome.
0:22:19 - (Phil): You don't have to say, sir, madam. That, to me, is a thing of the past, but it's welcome. Welcome to the commune, welcome to whatever the establishment's called. How can I serve you while you're looking at them in the eye. I'm still a big fan of Pike's Fish Market, so fish philosophy we used to call it at developer, but it was all about customer experience, which was choose your attitude before you come to work, make sure you're present when you're talking to people, have fun at work and make a customer's day. I mean, nailed it by saying, keep it simple, keep it systemized, but don't be robotic about it. No, you've got to bring that personality to it. What are some of your bugbears that happen in today's where people need to improve on their customer experience?
0:22:56 - (Joshua): I think it's a friendly face. Number one, they want to be there, I think is really important. I've been to plenty of cafes where there was a genuine interaction at the counter and then the staff came out and it was just a blank face, it was just there. I might as well have been served by a vending machine.
0:23:12 - (Phil): They would do in your favor.
0:23:13 - (Joshua): Yeah, exactly. Look, it's a hard thing to do and a lot of questions in the cafe group are around. How do I get my staff motivated? With everything going on, with recruitment being such a big issue in the industry at the moment, how do I get the staff motivated? What do I do? How do I get them excited?
0:23:28 - (D): I said, well, and I mean this.
0:23:29 - (Joshua): Respectfully, it does come back to you. They're not just coming in without you, you hide them. So your recruitment officer hide them, whatever it is, they're the ones that are leading this. It's up to them whether you want to train them in a way that they want to be a part of it. And we're spoiled for choice.
0:23:44 - (Phil): Inductions a big part.
0:23:45 - (Joshua): Right.
0:23:45 - (Phil): And that's something that I find cafe owners don't do well. You need to take the time to induct them and people say, oh, but it takes time and it takes this. Yeah, but this is the face of your business. And I used to always say, and I still do, I'm not the most important person in the business. It's anyone that's dealing with a customer day to day is the most important. I just have the most responsibility.
0:24:01 - (Phil): So anyone that's forward facing and dealing with customers has to be trained well, has to be, as you said, firstly chosen well for the business, then has to be inducted well, and then the ongoing training to make sure that they're engaging with the customers and bringing that.
0:24:13 - (Joshua): Like we talked about, the growth along with it. So if there are changes coming up, get them involved. If there is a new menu being updated, get them involved. Tell them the one year plan. What's the five year plan? They're not going to be there forever and both of those parties know that. But it's important that they are something that's bigger than just a wage, because people don't necessarily want a pay increase. They want job satisfaction, they want fulfillment.
0:24:33 - (Joshua): And it is tough with this next generation coming through. The industry was shaken dramatically with COVID.
0:24:39 - (D): Being so unreliable in terms of employment.
0:24:41 - (Joshua): So that does shake a lot of the feathers for people coming into the industry. So I do feel for owners that it is quite difficult at the moment. But like I said, there are places that are doing well and there are strategies and there are ideas. I cover a number of them in the book around competitions, around, bringing people.
0:24:56 - (D): In on social media, a number of different methods.
0:24:58 - (Joshua): That way, the book was published a few years ago, they're still accurate.
0:25:02 - (Phil): And again, I urge listeners that are saying, okay, well, that's good, but how do I know more about what Josh is saying? How do I explore it more? Well, like I said, two things you can do is jump on that Australian cafe owners network and grab a copy of the Hospitality Survival Guide. All the details will be in the summary in the short of this podcast. But get a hold of those two good resources and explore further what Josh is talking about, because really, you've got to do the work, we've got to do the work. We've unpacked some of the issues, we've unpacked some of the tips and tricks and all the rest of it, but it's a changing landscape and I'm going to finish on this.
0:25:32 - (Phil): Josh, to me, I've been in business 22 years. I've been in hospitality since I was 14. So shit, what's that, 34 years now? Jeez, I sound old. This is the first time in history of two things. One, every expense has gone up all at once. So whether it's wages, utilities, rents, insurances, everything's gone up all at the same time. On the other side, customers know this because every industry has gone up. It's not just the hospital industry, it's happened to everybody.
0:25:57 - (Phil): So the right customers are prepared to pay more if they're getting delivered more, right? So they're happy to pay more if they're getting more.
0:26:03 - (D): Not everyone, but most are.
0:26:05 - (Phil): So, something to be aware of. First time that everything's gone up. So, coming back, Josh said, know your numbers, know your customers. But the second thing is, and I'd love your take on this, is this is the first time that I've seen that it is very, very hard to anticipate the expectation and the direction of where customer needs and desires are going. So have a think about that because I'm throwing you a curly here.
0:26:27 - (Phil): This is, to me, the first time in 34 years of hospitality that you can't anticipate many things from a consumer behavior to shorten it. And I'll give you an example. We used to know in hospitality, from time I was 14, that Fridays were busy. We knew Fridays would be busy. Right. You know, Friday nights were one of your busiest weeks. Busiest nights of the weeks. You prepare for it, you prep for it, you have the right stuff on. Now, your Friday could be your quietest day, like last week for us. And we said we're a decent sized cafe, but we're not massive because we just service a need for the area.
0:26:57 - (Phil): Tuesday was our busiest day of the week up until the last two years. There is no way that I would bet that Tuesday is going to be the busiest day of the week. And I'm not saying busy by a little bit. I'm saying busy by, like, 30%. Wow. So we're seeing trends like that. Never would I have thought the ham and cheese croissant is going to be selling still at two and 03:00 in the afternoon. I just would not have expected that. So from your perspective, what's your take on that, about the changing needs and anticipating the needs of the customer?
0:27:22 - (Joshua): Look, if COVID taught us anything, it's our ability to adapt quickly, and I think it's seeing a bit of a flow on effect from there. And regardless of where the products take us, with great service and an average product, you can win a customer back. With crap service and a great product, you can't get them don't.
0:27:40 - (Phil): And that's really important for the listeners to understand that. So it still comes back to the human element and the engagement piece. Yeah.
0:27:46 - (Joshua): And it's doing what you can with what you've got. For the most part. Not all, but for the most part, customers know when you're busy, you're busy, they understand it. And if you can acknowledge that, hey, look, we're really busy. Like, we're here to serve and everything, they get it, they'll understand. And I think with those changing dates and everything that you talk about, that's an important thing to understand, is that if you're still composed, if you still manage it, if they're still await, if you're engaging with customers, we're really sorry, this is a huge rush we weren't expecting. We're here to serve.
0:28:13 - (Joshua): Keeping it real, keeping it honest, and keeping it patient. They'll get it and they'll come back. Because if a place is really busy and you go to a place, does that make you want to come back? Hell yeah, it does. Because why? It's busy. It's popular. Yeah.
0:28:26 - (Phil): Well said. Well said. All right, let's finish on this one. I've just finished writing a blog because our blogs tie into, obviously, what we're doing at the commune and I've titled Ten Trends in Food and Beverage Insights for cafe owners and hospitality professionals. I'd love to get your snapshot. So supply chain challenges is one of the trends that we're seeing, obviously, that are changing things. Addressing staff shortages, which we talked a bit about. Embracing sustainability.
0:28:48 - (Phil): Yes. What's your take on that? We're seeing a big move and I don't think they started scratching the surface yet because being sustainable costs money. The ESG movement, and we've been doing it for years.
0:28:57 - (A): Right.
0:28:58 - (Phil): Recycled cardboard. But the boxes cost more. But we've been doing it. We've got solar powers. Cost us 250,000 to put it in, but it costs more. But we're ticking the boxes where we can. Where do you see this whole ESG and sustainability going going in the same.
0:29:10 - (Joshua): Direction, if not more? I think cost will come down. I think it's something that a movement that will happen. And again, you don't have to burn your pockets to do it all at once. As long as the customer knows that you are committed to that process, to the cause, that's enough.
0:29:25 - (Phil): Great tip. Great tip. So small steps and start getting that sustainability in place.
0:29:29 - (Joshua): And promote it.
0:29:29 - (Phil): And promote it. Correct. Leveraging digitalization we talked about, and automation. Capitalizing on the growth of meal prep kits and food. We're seeing a lot more of that. You're seeing that trend as well.
0:29:38 - (Joshua): 100%. With everyone's life. Getting busier and busier, quick food, nice and delicious, low costs, lowering those staff costs to make meals on site. 100%.
0:29:48 - (A): Yes.
0:29:48 - (Phil): Perfect. Healthier food preferences. Of course, we're seeing that shift because of COVID and the rest of it. The shift to non alcoholic drinks is a big one.
0:29:55 - (Joshua): Massive.
0:29:55 - (Phil): Yeah. People don't realize that's the fastest growing segment in the world right now is non alcoholic drinks. So alcohol without alcohol. And I noticed that it gets around cafes where they can't serve beer unless they're licensed, can now serve zero alcohol beer. So you're still getting the flavor and all the rest of it with your meal. But the venue doesn't have to go through the licensing and all the trials and tribulations that entails plant based and alternative proteins. You talked about it with Biscuit. I call them Biscuit BSK.
0:30:20 - (Joshua): Yeah.
0:30:21 - (Phil): Those guys down there have obviously led the way in that great example. Financial preparedness. Jeez. If I got nothing else from this podcast, that's it. It's know your numbers, know your numbers.
0:30:30 - (Joshua): Be prepared, know them back. Like, if you're afraid to do it, get over yourself and find someone who can, because that is everything.
0:30:35 - (D): Perfect.
0:30:35 - (Phil): And a great way to finish trend number ten that I talk about, that people don't do this well, is storytelling, because the marketplace is cluttered. You've got to tell the story. So if you're doing all the good things, you're doing everything that Josh and I have been talking about. If you're already implementing the stuff that Josh has been speaking about, then you've got to do the next thing and the final thing, which is you've got to tell people, because if you're not telling them, it's nice having an ESG strategy and a sustainability strategy, but nobody knows what you're doing.
0:30:58 - (D): Right.
0:30:58 - (Phil): You've got to tell them. Nobody knows about something's coming from a spiritual producer or everything's sourced within 50 your venue. You've got to tell the story, correct?
0:31:06 - (Joshua): Absolutely.
0:31:07 - (Phil): So, Josh, closing remarks from you.
0:31:10 - (Joshua): Look, first of all, just thank you so much for being on it's our pleasure. Yeah. Look, it's something that I know you've been advocate for your whole life in this industry.
0:31:18 - (D): It's something that I'm very passionate about.
0:31:20 - (Joshua): And I think the main takeaway for me is that having that honest discussion.
0:31:25 - (D): With yourself really just sitting down going.
0:31:28 - (Joshua): Okay, I'm in a bind. It's okay. What do I need to get out of it? Because I can almost guarantee you can get out of it in a tough bind.
0:31:35 - (Phil): Well said. Face it head on. Nothing to add. It's been a pleasure to have you again, guys. Have a look at the notes. Jump on the network that Josh has built. Get a copy of the hospitality survival guide. It's all tools and resources there to help you. You've been listening to Josh King and Philip DeBella. This has been there and done that. And Josh has certainly been there and done that. Until next time, take care of yourselves. Be good to yourselves, be kind to yourselves and be the best you can be.
0:32:00 - (Phil): That's a wrap for today. Keep listening for more episodes of Been There and Done that. The Coffee Commune is here to help accelerate your potential. We want you to be better tomorrow than today. Until next time, you've been listening, Phil DeBella. I'm the founder and managing director of the Coffee commune, a place where the coffee community comes to collaborate.